uss arizona blue color
Depending how much more surface area there was to cover with 5-O under Measure 12 than there was for 5-N. By my calculations, if it took 300 gals to paint the ship between the boottopping and the top of the funnel, and this was split 2/3 for above the Main Deck and 1/3 below, then it would save about 100 pints of 5-TM. That and a piece of metal painted in 5-D (Dark Gray) lead to the conclusion that Arizona was painted in 5-S (fresh 5-D was darker than some black paints) and not 5-D. The guys in white are going on liberty, the guys in blue are staying aboard and the officers are in khaki. Security was tight for the last week as the model was placed in location, and it was covered in shrouds before being dramatically unveiled by a group of USS Arizona survivors. From the illustrations I've seen (mostly photos) both the upper and lower horizontal surfaces were painted the division color, as well as the entire fuselage from the rudder hinge back. Note the shadow of the port range finder on both turrets. Maybe they had been already painted 5-S? You can see photographs of Arizona's Kingfishers in September '41 on this Navsource's BB-39 page about 3/4 of the way down. OK, you were posting this when I started my last post. The Bureau of Ships in Washington created the paints and paint measures, but left the actual decision as to what to use was left up to theater (Commander-In-Chief Pacific, Commander-In-Chief Atlantic) and force (Commander, Battleships, Commander, Destroyers for example). But it does give us some basic facts that cannot be explained away by any interpretation. This isn't entirely true, though, because we know that ships had requested the amounts they needed based on those earlier formulas - if a ship is going to start switching from 5-L to 5-S they suddenly need 50 times as much tinting paste! I can't find that reference in your lists. he built the new model at the arizona memorial museum first displayed on 07dec2006. It has been said that the Main Mast and rear of Turret #3 were engulfed in flames, and if you zoom in on this, and the other photos, you will see discoloration and bare metal in these locations. These new shades were, from Dark to Light, 5-N Navy Blue, 5-O Ocean Blue, and 5-H? This is fact, not interpretation, right? The most common uss arizona memorial material is bamboo. This is what B&W photos do best, isn't it? 99. 96 were here. Wasn't the Pennsylvania still in Measure 1 in drydock? Such as on the photo I referenced on my OP. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. 5-D was a special paint and was issued in pre-mixed cans, whereas the later two were issued as a white base and separate tinting paint that was mixed in - different ratios made different colors. This pic on Navsource can only be magnified about 600X (I was looking at it at 400X) before it starts distorting. Over on Ship Forums, ArizonaBB39 worked up a drawing of what this scheme might have looked like. At the demarcation line for the 5-L paint above the Searchlight platform, visible almost perfectly right down to the platform, the 5-L paint appears to be completely undamaged, with virtually no soot from smoke. If the ship had been assigned Measure 12, then 5-O would have been the appropriate replacement for 5-D above the hull, and 5-N below the main deck. There's a chance Arizona was painted in Sea Blue, and a slim change she was painted in Navy Blue. This means that JUST a barbette could be repainted, or one side or bulkhead of a superstructure level. darkness) is about right. Arizona is a fluke in some regards as all of hers are the same color, but most of the others were not. He told me at IPMS Nationals in Phoenix that he knows what color the Arizona was. It may even be so because this was Isaac Hull's Flagship for his Bat Division and he might have wanted to set a good example. And it looks a lot like the photo above! So, I'm not trying to come off as a paint academic, it's just a topic I've had to research a lot to even get to where we are today. USS Arizona (BB-39) was the second and last of the Pennsylvania class of "super-dreadnought" battleships built for the United States Navy in the mid-1910s. Even though there are areas in the Medium and Dark sections that were obvoiusly damaged (observed fact, not interpretation), the areas around these damaged portions remained the same basic shade group for that section. As for the Captain's latitude, do you really think any Captain (prior to WWII) would defy the Force Commander (much less anyone higher) by painting his ship a different Measure? But as near as anyone has been able to tell from any pictures of the Arizona, she was still in Measure 1 at the time of the attack. Each of you will have to decide for yourself how much you want to believe, or how deep you want to dig. I seriously doubt that any Captain would have been so bold as to use 5-O on a Measure 1 scheme. That must have been some sight. Hardly stressful, just a grind; you have to remain alert and yet skim for hours on end. in early 41 she was 5D dark gray with 5L light gray tops. It does not tell what these colors are. Unless you consider that 5-O may have been in actual use prior to the attack. I wanted to go for the darker blue, but I've decided on Model Master 5-N Navy Blue which seems a little light to me. "Suddenly, here was a link to something that had troubled us for years," said Martinez. mixed with 5 gal of 5-U Un-tinted White Base Paint5-O Ocean Gray: 60 oz mixed with 5 gal of 5-U Un-tinted White Base PaintSource The bomb glanced off the turret side and went through the deck, doing no great damage above the deck. Point being we all have our focuses on certain life experiences, so I wouldn't necessarily put a lot of stock in what folks remember. 2 and No. They seem to have less damage than the rest of this area. "Mediterranean blue" was not a US Navy color and its mention in this piece has caused much confusion. This subject just will not die. Wasn't 5-O to replace 5-L, and 5-N would be to replace 5-S? Can you, or anyone else, dispute this particular fact? That is scientific analysis at its most basic level. 5-O was for use on Measures that required a third shade between the light and dark shades. Also, I thought the upper gun deck was painted steel, not wood. "Today, we have made it right. No..... can't picture that. To the point that bare metal seems to be showing on the rear of the turret under the range finder. Our community is FREE to join. These are possibilities we must keep in mind so as to not taint the research by looking for "proof" to fit an agenda, as so many do. Would it be that hard to figure out what that was? I like "Cogito ergo boom!" The reason for the interest in a non ⦠A Work in Progress: Hobby Boss USS Arizona in 1/350, part 1 A Work in Progress: Hobby Boss USS Arizona in 1/350, part 2 In this installment we will take a look at fixing the casemate deck, painting the hull, and finally adding detail to the main deck. Kind of narrows the possibilities a little. You just have to keep digging. The first will show you the turret markings. Yes, this area was very hot. To participate you must either login or register for an account. After all, I think we can all agree that they were not using modern Haze Grey prior to WWII. Yes, it may be just coincidence. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. Of course, it also looks different enough that we'll need to get used to it. Photographic interpretation is going to remain a matter of opinion and fraught with misinterpretation. Regarding the comment about the "gun Deck" color; if you're referring to the deck above the main deck that the boats and open mounts are on, this WAS wood and was not painted at any time in Arizona⦠Jul 7, 2016 - Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. It could solve the question at last. USS BB-39 Arizona: 875 x 457: USS BB-39 Arizona: 600 x 211: USS BB-39 Arizona: 800 x 390: USS BB-39 Arizona (1920) 587 x 179: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 777 x 233: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 725 x 561: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 480 x 354: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 475 x 361: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 480 x 354: USS BB-39 Arizona (1941) 749 x 569: USS ⦠the current number is two, one starboard aft off no. As I've said here and on other boards, Ron Smith found a document that he read to me over the phone, but then when he turned copies of his research over to myself and John Snyder, neither of us could find it, so it remains in "hearsay" status. tucchaseIt is also fact that there were 3 colors of #5 Paint in use at this time prior to the attack. 5.0 out of 5 stars 3. Navsource seems to be unresponsive at the moment. If anyone wants to read the source documents that I've found I've posted them to my site, ordered to use it instead of 5-S Sea Blue in early November, 1941. Our community is FREE to join. Then *as needed* and *without need to report* they were to repaint areas of the superstructure in the new 5-S Sea Blue or 5-O Ocean Gray. Otherwise you are trying to compare apples with oranges. The fire in the records at Pearl probably took care of that for us. At 600X there still doesn't appear to be much, if any. It is a single picture with direct sunlight highlighting vertical surfaces that are showing as three distinct shades of grey. I will leave that for each of you to decide for your self. This way, spotters could tell which ship was theres when directing fire. Launching car and catapult gun and breech mechanism are in good condltion. Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd, for what it's worth. I have never been a fan of weathering for weathering's sake. She is not underway, the National Colors should raised on the fantail not aloft and the Union Jack should also be raised. Yet it is the same apparent group of shades as at least the front half, and barrels, of #3. i know there has been discussions on how many bombs hit. Yes, the Captains were next to God on their ships. And it is my contention that there are. This may seem a bit tangential, but the problem I mentioned above is that the Navy units and forces already had the ingredients in place - they just needed the new ratios in order to make it. Or did it? The only other way we will know for sure is if someone goes back in time and takes new pictures and brings them back. It was interesting then, and it's still just as interesting now. It shows the USS Arizona Memorial under the clear sky on the main background so this template looks quite laconic and clear for understanding ideally fitting presentations on remembrances of heroes, USS Navy ⦠Navy Blue. She was laid down in 1917, launched in 1920, and commissioned in 1921. If you want to make any comparison in a single photo, then the surfaces being compared must be a similar angle to the light source, and without any glare or reflections from other surfaces. This may seem a bit tangential, but the problem I mentioned above is that the Navy units and forces already had the ingredients in place - they just needed the new ratios in order to make it. I am glad, and grateful, that you and others are able to do so. This isn't entirely true, though, because we know that ships had requested the amounts they needed based on those earlier formulas - if a ship is going to start switching from 5-L to 5-S they suddenly need 50 times as much tinting paste! By no stretch of the imagination can I see any way for the SLP to have been damaged without charring the Tripods immediately above it. This is better seen in the picture on page 253 of Stillwell's book. Anyway, can anyone else come up with a possible reason explaining the evidence in this photo and consistent with the known memos from this period of time? i will be at nautical research guild convnetion next week and one of the talks is on the arizona color scheme. The original camouflage instructions, released in January of 1941 defined three colors, 5-D Dark Gray, 5-O Ocean Gray, and 5-L Light Gray. where on the aircraft from arizona would the red paint be placed? 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser Named in honor of the 48th state's recent admission into the union and commissioned in 1916, the ship remained stateside during World War I.Shortly after the end of the war, Arizona ⦠Haze Grey. Gerard> Perhaps a forensic expedition to obtain forensic samples of exterior paint remnants could be allowed to finally put this question to rest once and for all. I was too busy climbing in and out of the damn thing!". This is incorrect. Lines, squares, and circles were some of the patterns that were used in the same colors. This is the only one showing this area, including part of Turret #4, that gives such a near perfect broadside view, with even, diffused sunlight (enough to make shadows showing the angle of the sun). This area was hot enought to deform the front end of the catapult (as specified in the damage report of said catapult), yet none of the turret is anywhere near as dark as the Main Mast. Anyone can believe what they want to, but I'm after something that will stand up to a scientific-type review. Not only was the ship blue, but the tops of the No. "This is a very descriptive theme that looks really impressive being designed mainly in white, blue and grey colors. The model is nicely done in terms of craft, but craft that serves no purpose vis a vis representing what the 1:1 ship might have looked like. Somewhere in between the other two shades. Mine, or anyone else's. uss arizona memorial/world war ii valor in the pacific national monument - uss arizona stock pictures, royalty-free photos & images Rainbow appears over the sunken USS Arizona in Pearl Harbor December 6, 2003 in Honolulu, Hawaii. But if so, Measure 1 only designates two colors for vertical surfaces above the boottop, 5-D or its direct replacement 5-S, and 5-L or its direct replacement 5-H. Is this correct? I have photos of the ships from different angles and different days, and what looks lighter in one photo doesn't in another. The information was announced last evening at an unveiling of a new model of the USS Arizona in the battleship Visitor Center at Pearl Harbor. Since there were two bomb hits near the port crane, it is understandable why this entire area got fried. But the executive summary is that the term "Mediterranean blue" should not be used. Anyway, can anyone else come up with a possible reason explaining the evidence in this photo and consistent with the known memos from this period of time? I'm no expert (and the diorama looks great - if not historically accurate) but I was thinking the figures seemed to be a bit large for the scale of the ship. Hello All, In the link below is a model of the Arizona built by Louis Carabott. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more. Their consensus was that the ships at Pearl Harbor were indeed painted in this manner. Price and other details may vary based on size and color. Tankerbuilder, wouldn't any computer scan comparison depend on all the pictures scanned to have been on the same type of film, with the same amount of light on the subject? So what we are seeing in this photo is three distinct shades of grey on the areas in question, and we have only three probable choices to match those three shades in this photo, plus ONE possible variation of the Medium shade, 5-O instead of 5-S. Red and green in the proper shades, can look identical in a B/W picture. I know that most of us are Americans and Americans hate a story without a conclusion, but that's just where we're at right now. This was even evident at yards where I was with my ship.The ship next to us was supposedly painted the same color as we were.If the color thing is so official then why did she (the other ship) appear darker in the sunlight?There,s one to think about. I have now literally spent thousands of dollars on research trips to try and answer this question (I will be up-front and say that not all of the time on these trips has been researching this color issue, but it's a big driver) and I just can't look at a picture and proclaim we know what happened. “I think, therefore I am.I am certain, therefore I am wrong.”. Am I wrong? A little un-squared away for the peacetime Navy. It reaches zero savings at a 50/50 split. "Every battleship sailor in the world wants a peek at this," remarked retired Adm. Thomas Fargo to the crowd of several hundred historians, veterans and news media. I could see Admiral Kidd asking his superior if he could try something different for his Division, or ship, but a mere Captain? All of the vertical, and near vertical surfaces have various subshades that are similar to each group of shades. USS Arizona BB-39 - Plans 11, 12 & 13. Its painted to represent a 5-D Dark Gray Measure 1 camouflage. if you read enough books on pearl harbor you will find eyewitness accounts of a torpedo hitting arizona, going under vestal and a bomb going down the stack. But not to the Commodores and Admirals above them. The main fact that stands out is that there are three distinct shades of grey on the vertical, and near vertical surfaces above the hull. The Wings Of Blue are the U.S. Air Force's Parachute Team. But some scientific methods can be used to make comparisons in a single B&W picture. It seems that it had recently been re-painted and it was dark 5-D gray or a very dark blue. Or am I mistaken and each Captain really had that kind of latitude? There is very little that needs to be interpreted, and only three colors for vertical sufaces above the hull that were in actual use at this time. The shade he was referring to is 5-S Sea Blue (US Navy ship paints during the war started with 5- for vertical paint and 20- for deck paint and then had a leter designating the color. #midway #ww2 #battle Clip from Midway 2019.WW2 Encyclopedia of aircraft - https://amzn.to/37b9SRoLink to main ⦠and 20-B was Deck Blue). USS Arizona BB-39 - Plans 3 & 4. B&W photos are known for their better detail and consistency. But even if a similar copy had been sent to the Pacific, I don't believe it would have mattered in the Arizona's case. P.S. And how long is this catapult? 4 turrets were red.". As someone once said, "Sometimes a duck is just a duck!". It appears to be longer than the barrels and they are over 50 feet long. Revised & expanded formulas defined in July 1941:5-H Haze Gray: 2 pints mixed with 5 gal of 5-U Un-tinted White Base Paint5-O Ocean Gray: 5 pints mixed with 5 gal of 5-U Un-tinted White Base Paint5-S Sea Blue: 10 pints mixed with 5 gal of 5-U Un-tinted White Base PaintSource Too bad it's impossible to identify colors from this photo, you could argue both dark grey or dark blue. The planes couldn't get close enough to read their names, so the bright colors helped.". FREE Shipping on your first order shipped by Amazon. There are several photos that seem to support the story by Mr. Bruner that the Arizona was in the middle of being repainted at the time of the attack. The next photo is the 1/350 scale battleship Pennsylvania painted in medium blue colors. This technique would certainly put this question to rest ,wouldn,t it? It is believed that this catapult can be made serviceable with the necessary structural repairs and overhaul of all working parts. i too am amazed this didn't come out sooner. How different was the very dark grey vs. the very dark blue color? The fire in the records at Pearl probably took care of that for us. The starboard crane is harder to tell, but comparing what you can see of it to the exact same part of the port crane, both appearing to be in the same sunlight, same angle, the starboard crane appears nearly undamaged. It is showing three distinct groups of shades of grey. Well you're in luck, because here they come. I also think that - now that it's getting much too late to do anything about it - it would have been interesting to interview Japanese pilots who were there to see what they remember - those colors must have made very nice aiming points. Again, this chip is not the standard S&S chipset and is only close-enough for discussion purposes. It is why many professionals still use it today for certain shots that need that detail. First- Along the lines of what was suggested, what if accurate paint samples were taken to Pearl Harbor and were positioned on or near BB-39 on the morning of December 7th? That description was used by Glenn Lane, an aviator attached to Arizona that Don interviewed a few times. The only 5-N on Measure 12 was the hull between the boottop and the Main Deck or highest sheer line, for the length of the ship (now under water). Or that the Searchlight platform seems to be undamaged because the tripod poles immediately above it seem to be undamaged. If the hull took much more than 1/3, there might be little or no savings at all. The idea, explained Preul, was so aircraft could identify their own ships, and also see which ships were firing their cannon: "These battleships could throw shells 18 miles. It is also fact that there were 3 colors of #5 Paint in use at this time prior to the attack. Unless Tracy, or one of the other researchers, can come up with a memo ordering the Arizona to convert to Measure 12, or a letter from Admiral Kidd saying he is going to convert to measure 12, or any other memo or letter saying that this is so, we must conclude that Arizona was still in Measure 1, which was known. But the cause of that damage is now pure speculation without the nearby bomb hits. Wasn't 5-H pretty close in shade to 5-L? Sorry, I've got a high-resolution copy of that scan, and the platform edge and structure underneath show signs of heat damage. I attribute this apparent fact to why the Main Fighting Top is so clean. Possible. In 2006, the visitor center revealed a new model of the Arizona(see link). Yes, this area was very hot. Photographic interpretation is going to remain a matter of opinion and fraught with misinterpretation.". This damage report seems to reiterate what I said about the damage to Turret #3. I tried to look through the CINCLANT files, but they were unavailable due to reprocessing. They were also Light, Medium, and Dark. Either it is still Measure 1 and the three distinct shades of grey are, from dark to light, 5-D, 5-S, and 5-L, or it is Measure 12 and these three shades of grey are from dark to light, still 5-D, 5-O, and either 5-L or 5-H. Another favorite I hold close is (Charles) Kettering's Law: "Logic is an organised way of going wrong with confidence.". On the Main Mast, the damage appears to extend only about 20 feet of so up each of the tripod poles and the boat cranes. Is this correct Tracy? Without assuming any other facts not given by the known memos, or this photo? This forum seems to breathes and eats controversy. This is the old Revell USS Arizona with Gold Medal Models brass detail, a few bits from the Tom's Modelworks set, and a ton of scratch-building, including the Kingfishers and the 5" AA guns on the boat deck. The front end of the catapult is over the rear of the turret, correct? 5D dark gray is almost black. It struck me that there appeared to be too many shades of grey in them for them to be a two-color scheme. Thanks Hank Support the troops Garry Owen, By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. Don't know how he did it, but it's way too grungy for my taste, especially when compared to any photos I've ever seen. Plus, there are vertical surfaces in said sunlight, in each of the seperate shades of grey, that appear to be at, or very close to, the same angle to the sun. Even memories from the same person. View our. "Mediterranean blue" was not a US Navy color and its mention in this piece has caused much confusion. Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet Admiral Husband E. "Mustapha" Kimmel, Battle Force (Task Force 1) Vice Admiral William S. Pye, Battleships, Battle Force RADM Walter S. Anderson, Battleship Division 1 RADM Issac C. Kidd BB-36 Nevada (Nevada Class)-Captain Francis W. Scanland BB-38 Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania Class)-Captain Charles M. "Saavy" Cooke, Jr. BB-39 Arizona (Pennsylvania Class)-Captain Franklin Van Valkenburg, Battleship Division 2 BB-37 Oklahoma (Nevada Class)-Captain Howard D. "Ping" Bode BB-43 Tennessee (Tennessee Class) BB-44 California (Tennessee Class)-Captain Joel W. Bunkley, Battleship Division 4 RADM Walter S. Anderson BB-46 Maryland (Colorado Class)-Captain D.C. Godwin BB-48 West Virginia (Colorado Class)-Captain Mervyn Bennion. But how much damage is shown on the tripod poles immediately above the SP? The starboard crane is harder to tell, but comparing what you can see of it to the exact same part of the port crane, both appearing to be in the same sunlight, same angle, the starboard crane appears nearly undamaged. Now, I happen to agree that the barbette looks suspiciously light. View our, http://www.bismarck-class.dk/shipmodels/american_models/arizonacarabott.html. The picture above shows just the port edge of the top, and that only because the top was curved. He said they weren't, and he didn't know about the shields because he was on the party scheduled to do the superstructure area. Question,there are computers that can interpret colors from shades of grey.Why hasn,t this been done? There are several that reference 5-O to be used in some measures in the Atlantic, but not as a replacement for 5-D. And there are a few that specifically state that 5-S is to be used in place of 5-D in the Pacific. Pennsy had two whites and a red. hi...i'm new here and haven't read all the posts yet, but has anyone asked any of the Arizona survivors what color the ship was on Dec 7? What squadron did the Pennsylvania belong to? It appears to be longer than the barrels and they are over 50 feet long. This document, authored by CINCPAC Admiral Kimmel referenced a shortage of paints and as a measure of stretching out stocks, sought to use a transitional measure. Regarding the comment about the "gun Deck" color; if you're referring to the deck above the main deck that the boats and open mounts are on, this WAS wood and was not painted at any time in Arizona's career. i think i read one hostory of 5 or 6 bombs hitting. The fact is that photographic interpretation is not going to sufficiently answer this question. One thing I noticed in all the pictures of the attack, both during and after, was that the wind was consistently blowing all smoke and flames toward the bow of the ship. Current: Not the other way around. Do you have a link or a list of all ships with thier cooresponding colors? and I can tell you ,from experience,that five ships painted (supposedly) the same shade of "HAZE GREY " looked as different as night and day.You could see the differences in daylight very well. Your third paragraph points to the difficulty that may entail. As an aside, I never REALLY had an interest in camouflage until I started the research on Arizona, and even now it bugs me some times that I know as much as I do (I could write a paper on the use of 5-D alone, and that "scared" me the first time I realized that!). Никто не Забыт (No one is Forgotten)Ничто не Забыто (Nothing is Forgotten). So theoretically they could "instantly" change formulas as there's no supply chain lag. There were only three probable shades of grey in actual use that we know for sure. But any single photo CAN give you facts once you have eliminated the chaff. haven't you seen all the japanese pictures of pearl harbor. Even a paint sample won't help, because we have the possibility of different areas being painted in different colors - it would just show *that* area. It also reveals what an interesting time of transition the Navy was in at the time. But that does NOT apply to this photo. If you want me to post a photo as an example to clarify that, I will - but I'd rather not because the binding of my copy of Navy Air Colors is weakening from the strain of flattening it out on the scanner bed.
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